Thursday, January 31, 2008

Michael Shermer, the Self-Described Skeptic Turns Gullible on 911

Michael Shermer, of Skeptic Magazine, claims to have debunked the 911 Truth Movement. In fact, he doesn't understand it. Shermer tars the movement with a broad and fallacious brush, absurdly comparing the 911 truth movement with Holocaust denial, a fallacious smear that misstates the 911 position. Holocaust deniers, in fact, have more in common with Bush and his defenders: both deny the nature and the scope of the crime of 911.

Bush asked us to believe numerous 'conspiracies' --conspiracies that Shermer, his ilk, et al would deny exist. At the same time --incredibly --Bush asked us to believe Saddam had WMD, possibly a nuke. Condo raised the specter of a mushroom cloud. Saddam, we were led to believe, was conspiring with Bin Laden to wage war on Americans. It was bullshit! But no one told Bush that 'conspiracies do not exist!" Nor was Bush held to critical or skeptical standards. Bush got away with it because the nation was in a state of shock. Americans, it would seem, are conditioned from birth to give greater weight to right wing theories of all sorts --economic, judicial, and conspiracy.
No holes, no Holocaust. No melted steel, no Al-Qaeda attack. The parallels are equal, and equally flawed. And just as I never imagined that Holocaust denial would wend its way into the mainstream press (Irving's trial was front page news for months), after my above conversation with the filmmaker I never imagined that 9/11 denial would get media legs. But now it has legs for days, and so we have been forced to provide a public response. To read our complete analysis of the claims of the 9/11 conspiracy theorists, go here.

--Michael Shermer, 9/11 "Truthers" a Pack of Liars
At the very outset, Shermer's misstatement of fact discredits his article. Knowledgeable "truthers" do not deny the existence of "molten steel". In fact, the existence of 'molten steel' is the strongest evidence against the guilty bastards who pulled off 911. Perhaps, Shermer is ignorant of the fact that airliner fuel --common kerosene --has not and will never bring steel to the point of melting. How does Shermer explain the free-fall of the towers? How does Shermer explain the fall of WTC7 which was not hit by an aircraft whatsoever? How does he do it without embracing the most absurd conspiracy theory to have come down the pike? He doesn't. He --in fact --embraces the most absurd conspiracy to have ever come down the pike!
Numerous videos of molten steel (see YouTube) utterly disproves the official conspiracy theory of George W. Bush. Steel melts at much higher temperatures than could possibly have been reached in the brief and relatively cool fires in all of the towers that fell that day. This is not a matter of either conjecture or propaganda.

It's a matter of physics.

Shermer's analogy, likewise, collapses. Bush himself, the architect of what will ultimately prove to be the biggest cover up in history, is better compared with holocaust deniers than are the growing legion who demand that the 911 white wash be ended now! 'Deniers' are, in fact, 'deniers of truth' and they are found among the devotees of Popular Mechanics, a magazine that foolishly gambled its credibility and lost.

Bush defenders likewise persist in a common fallacy: labeling those who demand an investigation as "conspiracy theorists". Rather, the only theory that has been put forward is the outlandish and absurdly improbable "official conspiracy" theory put forward by George W. Bush and his gang to include 'Condo' Rice. Rice called up the mayor of San Francisco and warned him not to be flying on 911. The other tip-off was Donald Rumsfeld who referred to "...the missile that struck this building [Pentagon]".

Congress and the Supreme Court have together, in fact, defined and recognized the existence of criminal conspiracies of almost every kind --from a simple 'stop-n-rob' to a extensive criminal conspiracies to include notorious drug lords. If conspiracies do not exist, the huge amounts of tax payer monies that is --for the most part wasted on the often ludicrous war on drugs --is a huge fraud upon the American people. If conspiracies did not exist, why has FINDLAW and Cornell University Law Library referenced so many court decisions and federal laws defining 'conspiracies'?  If conspiracies did not exist, why were nineteen Arab 'conspirators in terror' sought in connection with 911?

The "new" slogan --911 denier --has the stench of a right wing focus group hanging over it like fart in a phone box. 911 denier is intended to mislead. No one comes up with stuff like that spontaneously. I suspect Shermer's article is a road test. I would not be surprised to learn that Shermer was selected to roll out the term because of his now ill-deserved reputation as a "skeptic".

The tactic is pure propaganda, most certainly the work of a GOP focus group, a deliberate attempt to connect Bush critics with Holocaust deniers. Clearly --they believe that if they can do this, they can discredit the entire "movement" with only two well-chosen words: conspiracy theorist!

Consider this tactic exposed. It's typical GOP bullshit and propaganda.Until recently, Shermer had played the role of the great skeptic. No longer. No one who buys into the official 911 conspiracy theory could possibly be a skeptic. The better word is gullible. The dictum of a true skeptic is this:

THOSE WHO ASSERT MUST PROVE.
Shermer would have us ignore this important and prudent dictum. He calls himself a "skeptic". I call him, at best, naive. At worst --disingenuous. The fact of the matter is this: Bush and company asserted a theory! Not only did Bushco fail to prove the theory, the administration failed to even support it. Instead, the Bush administration THREATENED those who did not believe it! That is the tactic of a tyrant.

Bush, meanwhile, opposed a Congressional investigation and when the 911 commission was created Bush tried to interfere with it.
(CBS) President Bush took a few minutes during his trip to Europe Thursday to voice his opposition to establishing a special commission to probe how the government dealt with terror warnings before Sept. 11.
Mr. Bush said the matter should be dealt with by congressional intelligence committees.
CBS News Correspondent Bill Plante reports that Mr. Bush said the investigation should be confined to Congress because it deals with sensitive information that could reveal sources and methods of intelligence. Therefore, he said, the congressional investigation is "the best place" to probe the events leading up to the terrorist attacks.
--CBS News: Bush Opposes 9/11 Query Panel
It was later that former 9/11 Commission executive director Philip Zelikow interfered with the 9/11 report, now eschewed by the co-chairs of the committee.
According to the book, Zelikow had failed to inform the commission at the time he was hired that he was instrumental in helping Condoleezza Rice set up Bush’s National Security Council in 2001. Some panel staffers believe Zelikow stopped them from submitting a report depicting Rice’s performance prior to 9/11 as “amount[ing] to incompetence.”
...
In his book, Shenon also says that while working for the panel, Zelikow appears to have had private conversations with former White House political director Karl Rove, despite a ban on such communication, according to Holland. Shenon reports that Zelikow later ordered his assistant to stop keeping a log of his calls, although the commission’s general counsel overruled him, Holland wrote.
--Key 9/11 Commission Staffer Held Secret Meetings With Rove, Scaled Back Criticisms of White House
Earlier, evidence from the crime scenes in New York and the Pentagon was hauled off and disposed of. Last time I checked --the destruction of evidence was a felony. It still is.
Steel was the structural material of the buildings. As such it was the most important evidence to preserve in order to puzzle out how the structures held up to the impacts and fires, but then disintegrated into rubble. Since no steel-framed buildings had ever collapsed due to fires, the steel should have been subjected to detailed analysis. So what did the authorities do with this key evidence of the vast crime and unprecedented engineering failure? They recycled it!
Some 185,101 tons of structural steel have been hauled away from Ground Zero. Most of the steel has been recycled as per the city's decision to swiftly send the wreckage to salvage yards in New Jersey. The city's hasty move has outraged many victims' families who believe the steel should have been examined more thoroughly. Last month, fire experts told Congress that about 80% of the steel was scrapped without being examined because investigators did not have the authority to preserve the wreckage.
The bulk of the steel was apparently shipped to China and India. The Chinese firm Baosteel purchased 50,000 tons at a rate of $120 per ton, compared to an average price of $160 paid by local mills in the previous year.
--The Expeditious Destruction of the Evidence at Ground Zero
A real investigation would have admitted this testimony in evidence. Real skeptics believe in the "burden of proof" and the burden of proof has always been on the Bush administration. A true skeptic would demand that this evidence be released immediately. A true skeptic would have insisted upon this evidence being examined publicly by experts in a way that would allow its public verification. Buying into propaganda is not skepticism.

True skeptics are suspicious of officialdom. Officialdom has a stake in a slanted version; officialdom depends for its existence upon looking good, innocent, wise or authoritative. A real skeptic knows that that is rarely the case in fact. There are, in fact, New York fire fighters --on video tape --stating: 1) molten steel was found at the base of the collapsed towers; 2) they heard rapid explosions as the towers collapsed in a free fall. The 'rapid' explosions is a characteristic of controlled demolitions.

Even as forensic evidence was being destroyed, Bush seized the initiative, exploiting the shock to ram through congress measures that flout the separation of powers, measures that rescind Due Process of Law, habeas corpus, the presumption of innocence, measures that violate US Constitutional obligations to the Geneva Conventions, Nuremberg and other principles of International Law.
Our reporters were initially avoided by Moore, but he subsequently decided to approach We Are Change.org/ Infowars.com reporters for a discussion.
Moore brought up his lingering questions on 9/11, which are a clear departure from the 'government negligence' picture he painted in his film Fahrenheit 9/11, released some three years ago.
Moore told reporters, "I've had a number of firefighters tell me over the years and since Fahrenheit 9/11 that they heard these explosions-- that they believe there's MUCH more to the story than we've been told. I don't think the official investigations have told us the complete truth-- they haven't even told us half the truth."
--Michael Moore: 9/11 Could Be Inside Job
Moore's interest in 911 may have been peaked by the established fact that no identifiable airliner wreckage was ever found in the Pentagon debris. Moreover, as I detailed in a previous article, the "official" account of the burials at Arlington National Cemetery is shot through with inaccuracies, internal inconsistencies and inconsistencies with forensic accounts. While Pentagon victims were buried at Arlington National Cemetery, there is absolutely no record of any airline passenger nor any 'alleged terrorist' ever having been interred anywhere at any time in any manner whatsoever!

At last, some 184 unidentified remains were buried at Arlington National Cemetery.
A five-sided granite marker bearing the 184 names will be placed over a shared grave at Arlington National Cemetery — the nation's most prestigious burial ground — holding the unidentified remains.[emphasis mine, LH]

--Arlington National Cemetery
Of the 184, sixty-four were said to have been passengers of Flight 77, the flight which is said to have crashed into the Pentagon. But where were they buried?
A list of names on a piece of paper is not evidence, but an autopsy by a pathologist, is. I undertook by FOIA request, to obtain that autopsy list and you are invited to view it below. Guess what? Still no Arabs on the list. In my opinion the monsters who planned this crime made a mistake by not including Arabic names on the original list to make the ruse seem more believable. 
When airline disasters occur, airlines will routinely provide a manifest list for anxious families. You may have noticed that even before Sep 11th, airlines are pretty meticulous about getting an accurate headcount before takeoff. It seems very unlikely to me, that five Arabs sneaked onto a flight with weapons. This is the list provided by American of the 56 passengers. On September 27th, the FBI published photos of the “hijackers” of Flight 77.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology (AFIP), does a miraculous job and identifies nearly all the bodies on November 16th 2001
The AFIP suggest these numbers; 189 killed, 125 worked at the Pentagon and 64 were “passengers” on the plane. The AA list only had 56 and the list just obtained has 58. They did not explain how they were able to tell “victims” bodies from “hijacker” bodies. In fact, from the beginning NO explanation has been given for the extra five suggested in news reports except that the FBI showed us the pictures to make up the difference, and that makes it so.
--Thomas R. Olmsted, M.D, Autopsy: No Arabs on Flight 77
The numbers will never add up. Arlington National Cemetary says it interred 184 Pentagon employes. But AFIP says there were a total of 189 bodies --125 worked at the Pentagon and 64 were “passengers” on flight 77. Arlington claims that the unidentified remains of 184 victims share a grave at Arlington National Cemetery.
A five-sided granite marker bearing the 184 names will be placed over a shared grave at Arlington National Cemetery — the nation's most prestigious burial ground — holding the unidentified remains.
--Arlington National Cemetary
I interpret that to mean that this "shared grave" is the final resting place for unidentified victims from both the Pentagon and Flight 77.

Five are unaccounted for --presumably the "terrorist" hijackers. But that does not account for the discrepancy for several reasons. Both Arlington and AFIP claim that there were 64 Pentagon workers. AFIP provided a list of 56 passengers of Flight 77. That''s only 120! If you exclude 5 terrorists from the AFIP's total of 189, you are still left with 64 "people" completely unaccounted for. Who the hell are they? To be clear --no Arab names (i.e. no terrorists) were autopsied; no terrorists were interred at Arlington National Cemetery. There is, therefore, no evidence (let along proof) that there were ever at any time on any flight so much as ONE Arab --terrorist or no!
No Arabs wound up on the morgue slab; however, three ADDITIONAL people not listed by American Airlines sneaked in. I have seen no explanation for these extras. I did American [Airlines] the opportunity to “revise” their original list, but they have not responded. The new names are: Robert Ploger, Zandra Ploger, and Sandra Teague. The AFIP claims that the only “passenger” body that they were not able to identify is the toddler, Dana Falkenberg, whose parents and young sister are on the list of those identified.
--Thomas R. Olmsted, M.D, Autopsy: No Arabs on Flight 77
These are just a tiny few of the myriad of facts that Bush loyalists cannot explain away or rationalize with the official conspiracy theory. The silver bullet is this: there were no arabs on the flight manifests when "officialdom" maintains that all the said hijackers were Arab. Johnny Cochran won a famous murder trial with a single phrase which summed up his defense: "If it does not fit, you must acquit!" I rather think that a guilty party might be indicted just as simply: "No arabs on flight! You must indict!"

Indict Bush, Rumsfeld, Rice, Powell et al

I submit that if Bush and his guilty minions truly want to put this issue to rest they need only release all of the footage from all of the cameras that had been trained on the Pentagon and, in fact, photographed whatever it was that crashed and disappeared into the tiny little hole!

I challenge the current administration to order the release of all footage relating to the Pentagon. Let us resolve at last the question: what struck the Pentagon. That's a crucial issue due to the fact that NO airliner record was ever recovered at any time from the Pentagon. The most obvious 'scrap' is the single engine rotor that was photographed among debris. No other rotor of any size or type was recovered. The rotors that was found is about 1/3 the diameter of each of two much larger rotors (some 15 feet in diameter) that would have been recovered had a 757 crashed into the Pentagon.

I challenge the Bush administration to release all of that footage! Let us find out --once and for all time --what it was that crashed into the Pentagon. Let us find out if the Bush administration is innocent of mass murder and high treason --capital crimes!

If the Bush administration were innocent, it would release every photograph.

If the Bush administration were innocent of the capital crimes for which there is probable cause now to try them, it would respond positively to my challenge.

If the Bush administration were innocent, it would release all of the footage. It would --if it were innocent --put this issue to rest.

The following remarks, I address directly to Mr. Shermer. Mr. Shermer, your analogy is transparently fallacious! You deny the crimes of 911, as both Holocaust deniers and minions of the Third Reich denied the crimes of Adolph Hitler.
It is against such a background that these defendants now ask this Tribunal to say that they are not guilty of planning, executing, or conspiring to commit this long list of crimes and wrongs. They stand before the record of this Trial as bloodstained Gloucester stood by the body of his slain king. He begged of the widow, as they beg of you: "Say I slew them not." And the Queen replied, "Then say they were not slain. But dead they are..." If you were to say of these men that they are not guilty, it would be as true to say that there has been no war, there are no slain, there has been no crime.
--Justice Robert Jackson, Summation for the Prosecution by Justice Robert Jackson
To paraphrase Justice Jackson --Bush, his administration, his co-conspirators stand by the many bodies of 911 victims. They beg of you to say, to believe that this crooked administration '...slew them not'. But, in fact, there were slain and they are guilty as plainly as was the blood-stain Gloucester!

Mr. Shermer, if you subscribe to the official story, if you support Bush's decision not to investigate, if you dare compare those demanding truth with those who historically sought to cover it up, you become the new Gloucester! You would have us say: there have been no official lies, there are no slain, there has been no crime!

A self-described "debunker" ought to be debunking the most outlandish theory that ever came down the pike. A real skeptic could drive Mack trucks through the holes in the official conspiracy theory. Instead, Shermer wastes considerable talent defending an official "myth" if not the crime of obstruction of justice. In doing so, he violates his own principles --those of logic and evidence.

Shermer has forgotten a basic principle: those who assert must prove! Shermer has bought the official lie and simply discounts as untrue anything that contradicts it. This is an elementary breach of logic and Shermer should know better. If he knows better and persists in spite of it, he is dishonest. Jean-Paul Sartre said of this type that they live in "bad faith". Bertolt Brecht was more blunt: "A man who does not know the truth is just an idiot but a man who knows the truth and calls it a lie is a crook!" Shermer, which one are you?

58 comments:

winnybar said...

Keystone Cops 9/11: Analysis Of The Pentagon A3 Skywarrior Napalm Bombshttp://home.att.net/~south.tower/911PentagonNapalm1.htm

Anonymous said...

What about this one ?

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.binladen.denial/

Len Hart said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...

What about this one

In any case, Bush never made a convincing case that bin Laden was behind the attacks. No arabs ever showed up on flights manifests. The BBC interviewed several "alleged" hijackers AFTER they were said by Bushies to have died in the attacks, and Bin Laden was suffering from kidney failure as he was "said" by Bushies to have been on the run in Tora Bora.

Bush is a liar of NO credibility. The burden of proof was always upon him. There is NO reason to believe anything ever said by Bush about anything at anytime.

Len Hart said...

b. j. edwards said...

You're just another newbie in the 9/11 Denial Movement - 6 years late, incredible as that fact is.

The fallacious use of the term 911 Denial is clearly NOT original with you. It is a "focus group" term that is passed around to ilk like you by people smarter than you in hopes that you will pick it up and repeat.

It's bullshit!

There are several possibilities:

1) You know that it is bullshit propaganda but you repeat it anyway. That makes you dishonest!

2) You don't know any better and that makes you stupid!

3) You know its bullshit but you use it thinking it makes you sound cute and clever and that makes you both stupid and dishonest because the term is neither honest nor cute nor original!

Len Hart said...

A final observation about "911 Denier" , the term.

This term is deliberately intended to mislead. It's pure propaganda. Some GOP focus group somewhere did a studying and concluded that if they could somehow --however fallaciously --connect critics of Bush's lies about 911 with Holocaust deniers, they could discredit the entire "movement".

Consider this tactic exposed. It's typical GOP bullshit and propaganda. I will not be surprised to learn that this relatively new tactic originated inside the White House. And I thought Karl Rove resigned!! It certainly has a Rovian stench to it.

damien said...

Nice work, Len. That's what I like about the official 9/11 story - it's so full of crap.

Meanwhile....four of the 9/11 terrorists, including Mohammed Atta, trained at Huffman Aviation, a small Florida flight school located in the quiet town of Venice. Two of those students came to Huffman on I-20 student visas obtained before they entered the country. So they came specifically to this particular flight school out of 200 flight schools in Florida and paid twice the going rates for training.

Three weeks after Atta enrolled 43 lbs of heroin was found on board a Lear Jet owned by Wally Hilliard, the owner of the school- the biggest seizure ever in Central Florida. The details were reported in the local Florida press. No-one was charged. Reportedly, Hilliard’s plane had made regular weekly round trips to Venezuela and the Caribbean with Saudi passengers without the necessary FAA travel permits. The plane had been sold to Huffman by a pair of drug smugglers who had also outfitted CIA drug runner Barry Seal. There is certainly an appearance that Huffman Aviation was a drug trafficking operation that could only have been run with the approval of one or more US regulatory agencies.

There is further evidence for this. In April 2006 a DC9 (fitted out with Dept.Homeland Security look alike signage) was captured in Mexico containing 5.5 tons of cocaine. The company owning the plane had a sister aircraft that was housed at Huffman Aviation. No prosecutions occurred there either.

There are clearly serious unanswered questions regarding the activities of the 9/11 terrorists while they were in the US. The details are extensively discussed by reporter Daniel Hopsicker.

I suppose we could also mention here Wolfgang Bohringer. According to Mohammed Atta's girlfriend Amanda Keller, Atta was very close to Bohringer, called him 'my brother', and spent a considerable amount of time with him. Bohringer had arrived in the US in the 1990s and opened up an illegal Florida flight school that authorities seemed to allow. He was also the personal pilot for a major Eastern European Mafia figure named Victor Kozeny who was involved in drug-trafficking and high level US corporate fraud. One of Kozeny's close business partners was Hank Greenburg of the American Insurance Group (AIG) which, it is rumored, has major Bush family connections.

Bohringer showed up in tiny Pacific nation of Kiribati in Nov 2006 to a set up a flight training school on one of its remote islands. US authorities detained him briefly, gave him back his multiple passports, bags full of cash and weapons and sent him on his way.

...and we still have no explanation for the a $5 billion cash withdrawals in Aug 2001 (from the M1 money supply). Who knew 9/11 was coming?

So many conspiracies, so little time.

Hey, bj edwards. Who appointed you to validate the findings of the 911 Commission? Get this -- US citizens have the legal authority at any time to demand judicial reviews of ANY matter they consider important. Your preferences are irrelevant -- unless, of course, you consider it "unsafe" to allow US citizens to make up their own mind on this issue. Besides, you're wrong in too many ways.

Vierotchka said...

b. j. edwards most clearly is what in the real world is widely called a 9/11 Liar.

Vierotchka said...

And so, for that matter, is tnl.

damien said...

Hey, TLNL, I worked in a steel mill for three years. Do you know how long they have to heat those ingots just to get them flexible enough to roll into railway lines? -- in some cases 24 hours, never less than 4 hours. The fire in the south WTC tower burned for less than an hour, intensely for only 20 minutes. When I saw a dripping metallic beam being pulled from the ground after 9/11 I knew for absolute, rock solid certain that neither jet fuel nor office materials produced that level of malleability and high temperature. Why don't you just start asking people to believe in the tooth fairy!

Len Hart said...

Great post, Damien. Indeed! So many conspiracies so little time. The GOP, as I have said, is a criminal conspiracy if not a crime syndicate. And, of course, you probably have read how feel about the CIA and its various fronts. The CIA is the world's biggest terrorist organization. I am saddened that millions of Americans apparently don't have a problem with that.

Anonymous said...

Fuzzflash sez...

Sterling stuff, comrades. It's been a while since we've had three "live ones" loose on a thread simultaneously. They come on like rejects from a pissant convention. Flyweights and fleas all three, barely worth the swatting.

Damien, were you mangement or worker, Whyalla or Kembla? And I heard today on Auntie that we've a 21 year old Grand Master who won his first two major league tounaments, a feat not accomplished since FIDE assumed some global authority.

Len, saw "No Coutry for Old Men" yesterday. It's frightfully good. Might I humbly suggest that no card-carrying existentialist of Texan origin can afford to let this film pass without engagement. Here's a brief taste of the screenply:

VOICE OVER
I always knew you had to be willing to die to even do this job -- not to be glorious. But I don't want to push my chips forward and go out and
meet something I don't understand.
--------------------------

ELLIS
...What you got ain't nothin' new. This country is hard on people. Hard and crazy. Got the devil in it yet folks never seem to hold it to account.

BELL
Most don't.

ELLIS
You're discouraged.

BELL
I'm... discouraged.

ELLIS
You can't stop what's comin. Ain't
all waitin' on you.

(The two men look at each other. Ellis shakes his head.)

ELLIS
...That's vanity.

_______________________

This is the kind of a movie that can take a soul all the way...and then some.

damien said...

Len, I hate to say it but TLNL is right about efforts by the hard Right to infiltrate the 911 Truth movement. Joseph Cannon has posted a bit about it, but you might care to google Adnan Khashoggi, John Gray and Alex Jones (also 1 2). Khashoggi has some impressive achievements. Not only has he helped fund a 911 Truth Conference (with a special interest in controlled demolitions and no interest at all in drug trafficking at Huffman) he also has ownership links to the two cocaine planes that went down in Mexico and is connected to Huffman owner Wally Hilliard!! Khashoggi also had a hand in giving Bush the 2000 election and is involved in electronic voting fraud.

I have heard that there are Nazi type groups that have attached themselves to the 911 Truth movement and it's probably true. But -- despite Joseph Cannon's broadsides against controlled demolition claims -- the official case for the collapse of the buildings has not been made.

James Quintiere, PhD, former Chief of the Fire Science Division of NIST, has called for an independent review of NIST’s investigation into the 9/11 collapses of the WTC Towers. He says:

"In every investigation I’ve taken part in, the key has been to establish a timeline. And the timeline is established by witness accounts, by information from alarm systems, by any video that you might have of the event, and then by calculations. And you try to put all of this together. And if your calculations are consistent with some of these hard facts, then perhaps you can have some comfort in the results of your calculations. I have not seen a time line placed in the NIST report... I think the official conclusion that NIST arrived at is questionable."

TLNL's other claims I mostly disagree agree with, but I leave them to others.

damien said...

Hi Fuzzflash. I was at Whyalla and I was a "tackle man"(the technical term for a human horse). I disagree with the arguments of TNLN but I don't want to play down some real difficulties with controlled demolition theory. The fairest claim is that there has never been a proper investigation of the WTC collapses and the evidence has not be made available to independant researchers.

Anonymous said...

You say "GOP focus group" and it may be so.

However, I say Megaphone.

Isn't it, Mr. Shermer?

farang

Anonymous said...

TLNL:

As another that has worked in a foundry (Delavel Steel, Hayward, Ca), and has spent over 35 years working with steel and aluminum, I CAN tell, by the color, what the molten metal would be.

But, since you are simply a following your instruction from Megaphone to obfuscate the 911 issues, and not really at all intellectual, nor offering any proof to the contrary, I'll forgive your asinine assertion one cannot tell molten steel when one sees it.

OK?

farang

Anonymous said...

With numerous scientists taking readings in the aftermath of the attacks, with multiple evidence of levels of substances only found in the aftermath of nuclear events, isn't it "odd" we at this moment have a New York councilman, a member of the Homeland Security local taskforce, trying to ramrod through a law making it necessary to obtain a police clearance to take readings?

With imprisonment the consequence of using scientific equipment.

We should all applaud the councilman trying to get us to obtain approval from police to see if our air is safe to breathe (because the EPA lady wouldn't LIE to us, now would she TLNL? Oh, that's right, she did), since it is a well known fact that anyone scoring too high on the police exam gets DENIED.

TLNL: Elaborate on how the Emergency Responders are now suffering blood cancers that ONLY occur in the presence of Tritium, please.

Thank you in advance, and hope that won't overtax your limited facilities. See, two can play ad hominem.

LWA: farang

Len Hart said...

I will leave it to Shermer to clear up the ambiguity surrounding his decision to lump "molten steel" into a paragraph in which he clearly makes what I consider to be a deliberate false analogy --holocaust deniers with "911 deniers". And I stand by my charge that this kind of terminology is often tested first by GOP "consultants" like Karl Rove.

Secondly, Bush's official conspiracy theorists were caught flat footed on the issue of "molten lead" --citing its existence when it was thought it would support their first cover story, that is the airplane fires melted the steel... yada yada yada.

When it became abundantly clear that those fires could not possibly have burned long enough or hot enough to either melt or sufficiently weaken the steel framework, it became absolutely essential for Bushie conspiracy theorist to change the story. Thus the attack on the existence of "molten steel".

Again, there is no point is debating a point that is so easily put to the test experimentally. Kerosene fires have never, ever at any time melted steel.

Obviously, the existence of the molten steel --examined by experts who reported finding thermite residues on it --is no longer supportive of Bush's official conspiracy theorists. Their conundrum: how to make the molten steel go away?

That's their problem!

The very fact that this is being debated supports my final point: Bush could have avoided all this had he insisted upon an investigation instead of covering it all up, as he, in fact, did.

He might still redeem himself if he would agree to release EVERY photograph from the hundreds of cameras trained on the Pentagon.

And I can think of only one reason he would never agree to do this!

damien said...

Look TLNL, cut the nonsense! It doesn't matter who the neo-nazis and white nationalists attach themselves to, claims about the events of 9/11 stand on their own merits. Were the buildings brought down by controlled demolitions? What planes flew into the buildings? Did the US leadership have any foreknowledge of, or actively participate in, the events of 9/11? These are all real questions. The neo-nazis are a third rate red herring!

You also do a neat job of insulating Israel from questions about 9/11 -- "if the neo-nazis want to tie Israel to 9/11 then all right thinking people should exclude possible Israel involvement from the outset." I don't know whether your thinking is just woolly here or you know exactly what you are doing. There is considerble evidence that -- at a minimum -- Israeli Intelligence was tracking some of the 9/11 terrorists. I am sure you are aware Israelis were arrested in New York on 9/11 exhibiting very odd behaviour and celebrating the attacks. It didn't get much press, but there was a truck loaded with explosives detained by police on the George Washington bridge on 9/11. The occupants were Israelis. There are many questions about Israel's possible involvement in 9/11. (Links: 1 2 3 4)

Len Hart said...

Shermer quoting people who are fallaciously labeled "troofers":

"Such as the fact that steel melts at a temperature of 2,777 degrees Fahrenheit, but jet fuel burns at only 1,517 degrees Fahrenheit. No melted steel, no collapsed towers."

Shermer's comment to this in italics followed by my comments:

At this point I ended the conversation and declined to be interviewed, knowing precisely where the dialogue was going next--if I cannot explain every single minutia about the events of that fateful 11th day , that lack of knowledge, in his mind at least, equates to direct proof that 9/11 was orchestrated by Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and the CIA in order to implement their plan for global domination and a New World Order, to be financed by G.O.D. (Gold, Oil, Drugs) and launched by a Pearl Harbor-like attack on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, thereby providing the justification for war.

That's a long sentence and shot through with fallacies. Shermer IMPLIES that he is expected to "explain every single minutia about the events of that fateful day in September, 2001..." My reply is that it is the job of a theory to explain observed phenomena. And, of course, all this could have been avoided had the events of that day been investigated properly to begin with.

Secondly, Shermer labels people "troofers" if they dare demand that this crime be investigated.

At this point I ended the conversation and declined to be interviewed, knowing precisely where the dialogue was going next--if I cannot explain every single minutia about the events of that fateful 11th day , that lack of knowledge, in his mind at least, equates to direct proof that 9/11 was orchestrated by Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and the CIA in order to implement their plan for global domination and a New World Order, to be financed by G.O.D. (Gold, Oil, Drugs) and launched by a Pearl Harbor-like attack on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, thereby providing the justification for war.

That's a long sentence and it is shot through with fallacies. The temperature at which Kerosene burns is HARDLY "minutia" and has been determined simply enough through repeatable experiments. Either the fires were hot enough or they were not. If they were not hot enough, then the OFFICIAL CONSPIRACY BUFFS must explain the collapse in some other way. They cannot do that because they are married to the official, Bush conspiracy theory, the official narrative.

Bush's official conspiracy theory stands or collapses upon that very point. It is hardly "minutia". Secondly, I would not expect the intellect of a self-proclaimed skeptic would be challenged by a matter that might very well have been covered in a high school physics lab. This is NOT string theory.

At last --what's wrong with the experimental process? What is suddenly wrong with the idea of putting this idea to a test. For that matter --what's wrong with investigating this crime?

Yes --the towers were supported with a steel framework, a fact easily verified by the building specs, a matter of public record. The original, official conspiracy theory posited that fires from the airliners melted (later, weakened) the steel. This, according to the official theory accounted for what PBS called "pancaking" and secondly for the "molten steel" that was found at the base and later examined, determined, in fact, to have thermite residues.

The PBS documentary featured an animation of the pancake "effect" supposed to have occurred when the steel had melted. The trouble with the animation was this: it conveniently OMITTED the steel core which would have remained standing had this "first draft" of the official conspiracy not been changed. Of course, we know that there was a steel core and because there is a steel core and because it obviously collapsed, the melting point if steel is HARDLY "minutia".

Len Hart said...

Fuzzflash sez...

Len, saw "No Coutry for Old Men" yesterday. It's frightfully good. Might I humbly suggest that no card-carrying existentialist of Texan origin can afford to let this film pass without engagement. Here's a brief taste of the screenply:

Thanks for the recommendation, Fuzz. I'll have to check it out. Good to see back on the board, podnuh!

damien said...

Len, we are at the stage that we can conclude, with a high degree of certainty, that 9/11 was an inside job by elements of US Intelligence. You may recall the two planes that came down in Mexico with 10 tons(!) of cocaine between them. Both of them had Dept. Homeland Security look alike signage. The ownership papers of both planes can be traced back to US sources with close ties to Republican Part members. Here's the best bit. Daniel Hopsicker has just published an article claiming that a central figure in the investigation of these planes is Michael Brassington,

...the [Guyanese] co-pilot on a drug running Lear jet (N351WB) caught by DEA agents at Orlando Executive Airport in July of 2000 carrying 43 pounds of heroin..

That's right, Brassington was nabbed flying Wally Hilliard's plane with 43 pounds of heroin about the same time Atta rolled up to take flight lessons. Now he's been linked to two drug planes made up to look like they're flying for the US Government, planes that have dodgy ownership papers that seem to have little trouble entering the US. The second of the two planes nabbed in Mexico has been shown by EU records to have been used for rendition flights to Guantanamo!

And now we have both flights connected by Michael Brassington to Wally Hilliard and Huffman Aviation.

So here's the question. If you are running a criminal drug trafficking enterprise in the US, what do you do when 4 stray Arabs -- people you know nothing about -- roll up and start taking flying lessons? Find out who they are or just let them nose around? Of course, if they were sent there then that's a different story, isn't it?

This is prima facie evidence of US involvement in the attacks of 9/11.

Len Hart said...

damien said...

Len, we are at the stage that we can conclude, with a high degree of certainty, that 9/11 was an inside job by elements of US Intelligence. You may recall the two planes that came down in Mexico with 10 tons(!) of cocaine between them. Both of them had Dept. Homeland Security look alike signage. The ownership papers of both planes can be traced back to US sources with close ties to Republican Part members. Here's the best bit. Daniel Hopsicker has just published an article claiming that a central figure in the investigation of these planes is Michael Brassington, ...

I think you have tied it all together. Have you posted this on your blog? If so, would you mind my reposting here with the proper credit and a link back, of course?

Another observation about Shermer's favorite strawman --ALUMINUM.

This "aluminum" bullshit is just another example of how Bush defenders are constantly CHANGING the story. These are all violations of Occam's Razor and if Shermer were the skeptic he claims to be, he would not indulge in it himself.

It's all fine with me, though. Everytime the Bushies change the parameters, they create a whole new set of things they have to explain. Instead of making life easier for their sorry selves, they just keep making it worse.

One day --like twin towers --the collective bullshit of Bush and Shermer will all come crashing down.

damien said...

No credit to me, Len. Daniel Hopsicker has been running a series of articles and Cannonfire has obligingly run extracts and commentary. But certainly the evidence is overwhelming that the two downed drug aircraft in Mexico (one captured, the other crashed) could only have been running with the sanction of, as I say, "one or more US regulatory agencies". Which agencies, we don't know for sure, but Hopsicker points to other CIA front companies in Venice, Fla connected to the airport, so CIA is involved. Frankly, this is all getting rather silly -- NO US media coverage (just like the recent Sibel revelations where she says that the #3 at the State Dept has been okaying stolen nuclear technology). The MSM dysfunction just goes on and on.

Aluminum and nazi-troopers, it's all grist for the mill for those 911 Truth Detractors. And don't you ever forget, Len --

You're just another newbie in the 9/11 Denial Movement

Cheers, mate.

Len Hart said...

damien said...

Aluminum and nazi-troopers, it's all grist for the mill for those 911 Truth Detractors. And don't you ever forget, Len --

You're just another newbie in the 9/11 Denial Movement


LOL LOL LOL You made my day. G'day and cheers, Mate!

Len Hart said...

Michael Shirmer posits that what was mistaken for molten steel was really "aluminum"

Stop me!! My sides are hurting.

The specific gravity of Aluminum is ~ 3.4 to - 3.6l; Aluminum, cast-hammered 2.55 - 2.80

The specific gravity of STEEL varies from 7.3. to 7.8.

It is easy to verify from building specs that the core was STEEL. And, it is hard to imagine anyone but complete idiots mistaking aluminum for steel.

Anonymous said...

TLNL,

I am not surprised someone in the Megaphone network would bring up "white supremicists" into the mix. Nice try.

Yes, I meant DeLaval, And I should have stated DeLaval Turbine, not "steel", but since I worked in sub-assembly fabrication, in same building immediately next to die and cast, and foundry, I simply misspoke. It's been 28 years since I worked there.

Yes, I can tell what metal is molten by the color: Molten Aluminum has no color. Capice? Molten Steel has an orange hue. Never used an acetylene torch, have you TLNL? A rosebud to heat and form steel? Didn't think so: You would know we (professional Journeymen) use the color to determine when to start forming.

Show you what videos I spoke of? I never mentioned anything about videos. I speak from experience, not out my ass.

Sorry I didn't keep my computer on and focused on your reply so I could immediately respond to your nonsense, however, I am in Micronesia, not your time zone. Not to mention, I have a life.

"Likewise Iraq war - fascists OPPOSED Iraq war, not out of principle but because they believe it is FOR Israel. Fascists have been riding the anti-war protest - promoting their own agenda - promoting their own interests and perspectives, their writers, their websites."

Glad you brought Israel into the mix: I never said Megaphone is an official Israeli government program to flood any website with distractions and innuendo that gets close to the truth of the events of 9/11/01, among others. But it is, isn't it, "TNLN"?

So, like I said, Megaphone strikes again.

It is "fascists" that oppose war, because they think it is for Israel's benefit? Label me a "fascist" then.

And those that supported an illegal war/occupation of aggression against a country that has never threatened or harmed the US, teddy bears?

Talk about a weak attempt to turn reality on it's head. What next "I know you are, but what am I", TLNL?

I wash my hands of your nonsense. Chasing you in circles just to watch you go back to an already discredited position is BORING, takes the joy out of dueling with Megaphone agents.

Like the Rude Pundit.

TLNL has coined a new definition of fascism.

Let's call it the Idiot's Guide to Fascism, shall we?

Wish you could counter just one fact presented.

For instance: In 2002, we were hit with a supertyphoon. It caused a spark somehow, and set a large (million gallons+) storage tank at Mobil's Cabras Island bulk storage (excuse the technical terms, I am now a contractor working mostly with JP-8, or military jet fuel, Diesel, and JP-5) facility. I work world-wide on jet fuel storage facilities, including pipelines. For instance, I installed a new pipeline at Ft Hood, Killeen Texas last year, after repairing their two fuel storage tanks at Robert Grey Army Airfield, West Ft Hood the previous year... have one more s.s. pipeline to install soon.

I also am a member of the Boilermaker Union, and have erected many steel bulk fuel storage tanks, since I was 18 years old, now 52.

This fire at Mobil burned for 4 days. In a storage tank with a thickness of 1/4". Mild steel. Not as strong an alloy as the 36" x 36"x 3"thick wide flange beams used as the core in the WTC Towers.

My point?

This weaker, altogether comparatively thin mild steel?

Didn't melt, didn't weaken, didn't leak and didn't collapse after a hydrocarbon fire burned for 96+ hours. A million gallons, compared to an office cubicle-sized fuel capacity of a commercial jet. Like melting a locomotive encased in concrete, with a thimble full of diesel. Uh-huh, sure thing.

Yet you would have me deny my own eyes that see wide flange beams (weighing more than school buses) being launched in an arc a distance of 600+ feet, concrete powderized (all the moisture being boiled out at extremely high temperatures), and a disappeared core. And you would label it a "gravity collapse."

Sorry, no can do.

And, let's take science: Purdue did a computer simulation they state proves the "official conspiracy theory", but... Go to youtube, watch this simulation.

Then, go watch the msm video's real life impact of the jet seen on tv by multi-millions.

See anything strange? Well, in the simulation, the cockpit is shredded like it went through an egg slicer upon impact, and shatters into countless pieces.

Ok, I would agree with that (if I agreed with the official conspiracy theory, which I do not), but...

Explain why we can all see an undamaged cockpit emerge from the tower, then explode? Passed through TWO aluminum and steel facades undamaged? Please.

I guess no matter how they tried, they could not program the computer to allow the cockpit to pass undamaged????

TNLN, you will ignore this fact. I guarantee.

Done with ya, I won't respond to anymore of your silliness. You're dismissed.

farang

Anonymous said...

TLNL:
"As for the aluminium vs steel - prove it? Where are the videos from which you claim you can tell? Tell us what you see - how you know.

-------------

Same for Tritium caused cancers in responders.

Evidence!?"

Your wish is my command, fool:

. Newsworthy - Families of September 11
... its kind - of cancers among 9/11 responders and thousands of others who lived ... 2, 2007 September 11 Responders Rally ABC News - Some ...
http://www.familiesofseptember11.org/news/news2.asp?s=6 http://www.familiesofseptember11.org/news/news2.asp?s=6 [ Ask.com ]

Too bad you don't know how to use search engines "TLNL."

farang

damien said...

Very, very good post farang. Many thanks. I guess you would reject the claims that diesel fires brought down WTC7? Btw, I draw your attention to winneybars excellent link and this quote about the Pentagon:

...foam fire trucks from the nearby airport just happened to be dealing with a nearby auto fire when they heard the crash and saw the smoke plume. After arrival it took them SEVEN MINUTES to extinguish all but remnants of the remaining fires.

That's something many people miss. A local fire brigade was first on the scene at the Pentagon and put out the fire in seven minutes. That's right! They then left and (amazingly) the fires blazed up and burned for a further 36 hours. (also here and here)

And TLNL, I gave up posting at 911 Truth Detractor sites because they kept insisting I had an obligation to prove to them that the official 9/11 account does not hold up. The whole exercise was demeaning and pointless. It's the government's story -- they have to make their case, not the other way round.

damien said...

Like melting a locomotive encased in concrete, with a thimble full of diesel.

Exactly. Melted fucking steel due to jet fuel. Beams 36" x 36"x 3" encased in fireproofing. All the fireproofing stripped by a plane with a nose cone that will crush easily. 44 central beams spread out across 1/3 of the buildings cross sectional area. Explosions in the basement, supposedly by jet fuel coming down the only elevator shaft connecting the basement to the impact zones. Explosions in the basement that reportedly occurred before the plane's impact was heard or felt by people in the basement. Explosions in the basement from kerosene fuel that allegedly blew marble off the walls and exploded a massive basement generator. Yeah,sure. Then there's the walking on water and loaves and fishes stories. Equally believable.

Len Hart said...

TLNL wrote: you are having a laugh? Who said the core was made of aluminium!?

Apologists for Bush's absurd conspiracy theory said that those who demand a real investigation had mistaken molten aluminum for steel. Not surprisingly, you falsely seem to attribute that position to me. Moreover, your intentions are unclear. Do you think that someone, somewhere had said that the core was made of aluminum? If so, you need to go back to school. NO ONE on this blog nor has anyone, anywhere at any time EVER said that the core was made of aluminum, you idiot!!!

The point was utterly lost on you.

MOLTEN STEEL, however, was, in fact, examined by experts. Clearly --they would not have taken aluminum for steel! The very idea is worthy of a horse laugh!

If 911 had been investigated --as is the case with every other crime (except those committed by the GOP) --we wouldn't be having this absurd discussion. There is no mistaking aluminum for steel or vice versa.

The official theory is a fire theory. If the "fires" did not bring about the collapse, then the official theory is bullshit!

I challenge you to cite a single case in which fire has been determined decisively to have been the cause of the collapse of a large steel-frame building.

Cite it! .

As David Lee Griffen accurately pointed out: Steel does not even begin to melt until it reaches almost 2800° Fahrenheit. Nor did the towers collapse because the fire had weakened the steel because the fires could not have burned long enough or hot enough for even that to have happened. If you think Griffen is lying, then just try it; try melting steel and record in a way that can be publicly verified, your results. If you manage to melt steel at temperatures lower than those cited by Profs Griffen or Jones, then please share that information with the world.

Until you've done that, you have no fucking case whatsoever and neither does Shermer!

I have covered a plethora of fires in my day. A fire was considered spent when the smoke turned the black. On 911 --the jet fuel, as to be expected, burned up quickly in enormous fireballs. The fires were coughing up black smoke within about 10 minutes; they most certainly did not and could not have burned hot enough or long enough to have melted, even weakened the steel! It is highly doubtful that even aluminum ( melting point 1220.666 °F)) would have utterly melted under 911 conditions. Again --try it and see for yourself. In any case, the core was not made of aluminum but of steel.

Here's where the obstruction of justice (a felony) comes in. Only a tiny portion of the columns were available for scrutiny because government officials --most certainly under orders from the Bush administration --ordered the steel sold and shipped off. The willful concealment or destruction of evidence from a crime scene is a felony!

Now partisans of the official bullshit story still try to have it both ways, hence the absurd notion that molten aluminum was mistaken for molten steel. There is no evidence that that happened. No one mistook Aluminium for steel or vice versa. Another bullshit story concocted by Bush-heads for which there is not a shred of evidence.

Rather: "We start with the fact that large quantities of molten steel were observed in basement areas under rubble piles in all three building: the Twin Towers and WTC7. ...The photographs ...by Frank Silecchia show chunks of the hotel metal being removed from the North Tower on Sseptember 27, 2001 (according to the photographer's aid). Notice the color of the lower portion of the extracted metal --this tells us much about the temperature of the metal and provides important clues regarding its composition, as we shall see." ..."On the basis of photographic and video evidence as well as related data and analyses, I have provide thirteen reasons for rejecting the official hypothesis, according to which fire and impact damage caused the collapse of the Twin Tower and WTC7, in favor of the controlled-demolition hypothesis. The goal of this paper is to promote further scrutiny of the official government-sponsored reports as well as serious investigation of the controlled-demotion hypothesis. (No rebuttal of my arguments for an in-depth investigation can be complete, of course, unless it addresses all of these points.)"

--Dr, Steven E. Jones, Physicist and Archeometrist.

Prof. Jones' peer-reviewed paper is available as a PDF file here.

At last -- has it never occurred to the Bushco partisans to simply try it???? If you think steel will melt at kerosene fire temperatures, then PUT IT TO THE TEST OR SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT IT!

Ed Encho said...

Another fine post Len, I haven't stopped by in awhile. I ljust love the new pejorative "9/11 denier" and as another poster said this is not so much of a GOP focus group product as it is of another far more organized and ruthless group.

The tactic is pure propaganda, most certainly the work of a GOP focus group, a deliberate attempt to connect Bush critics with Holocaust deniers. Clearly --they believe that if they can do this, they can discredit the entire "movement" with only two well-chosen words.

You hit it right on the head here with the linking to the Holocaust, it is the ultimate Weapon of Mass Deception and is constantly used by Israel Lobby extremists to smack down dissent by equating them with Nazis. They always do this when threatened.

Now this represents an interesting new phase for 9/11 truth because if the Megaphoners are getting involved then it is a damned near certainty that certain elements of God's chosen land had a hand in the operation. Of course it wasn't them alone but they were one of a coalition of interests who would benefit greatly from the attacks.

9/11 truthers are killing them now and it is crossing into the zeitgeist that the "big wedding" was in fact an inside job. I think the point where they decided that it was going to take drastic action was after those activists showed up on the Bill Maher show last year and were confronting politicians and other figures in public speeches.

The crackdown had to begin, the war needed to go on, Iran had to be attacked and the dissidents had to be put back in line.

Interesting that Hillary Clinton and John McCain are now the front runners again too - no longer a need to maintain the illusion, they were ALWAYS the front runners.

Time is running out, HR 1955 will soon be in effect and we will all be hunted down like dogs.

Just my two cents, once again you are doing fine work Len.

Ed Encho said...

The Megaphoners have no fucking shame, they continue to callously piss on the memory of the real victims of the Holocaust in order to ensure that their own Naziesque crushing of dissent and reigning in free speech can continue to rage unabated.

They are totally pissed off now that Israel's interests in the war in Iraq and the coming attack on Iran are now being exposed as being against American interests. They of course have no other way to defend it than to engage in the standard brownshirt tactics and cyber demagogy. Let's face it, it isn't exactly a secret that the neocons and their right-wing uber Zionist fascist allies have a pathological desire to use brute military force and propaganda to allow Israel to carve out more and more lebensraum, just check out the "A Clean Break" and PNAC docs because they are pretty proud of it all.

9/11 is the Rosetta Stone to so very much more and I would bet that a good deal of it involves the Anglo-American oligarchy using 'God's chosen land' as a cut out in many of those illegal and bloody covert operations that have plagued the world since the end of WW II.

You really put a king-sized burr up some asses with this one given the way that they are swarming over here right now.

They are losing the battle in the information war and losing badly.

Just my two cents

EE

Len Hart said...

Ed wrote...

You really put a king-sized burr up some asses with this one given the way that they are swarming over here right now.

Yep! But they ain't seen nothing yet!

BTW --I offer the same admonition to Bushheads and other spammers: I will no longer put up with ad hominems and insults UNLESS you post irrefutable proof that steel can be melted with kerosene. Otherwise, your shit ain't welcome.

Bush's entire official conspiracy rests upon that. The whole thing is a fraud.

Ed Encho said...

Hear! Hear! The entire official story stinks like Hitler's Big Lie and it has been used to justify every abuse of the constitution ever since. Only those still asleep, those in denial or those who have a vested interest in perpetuating the descent into fascism and a Middle Eastern war will continue to buy it.

I say that the first step on the road to the return of the rule of law to the land is exposing the official conspiracy theory as the tapestry of lies that it always has been.

As Gandhi famously said:

“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”

We are now in stage three and well on the way to stage four.

We will not be deterred, if anything now it is time to redouble the efforts to expose all of the lies and to hold the those who are traitors accountable at The Hague.

EE

Len Hart said...

Blogger Ed Encho said...

The entire official story stinks like Hitler's Big Lie and it has been used to justify every abuse of the constitution ever since.

That's precisely what it is. I wonder how they got to Shermer. Skeptic, my ass! 911 Denier, my ass!

I am sure we can come up with hundreds of catchy, focus-group approved epithets and labels with which to describe the 911 Liars* *thanks to my fiance

Len Hart said...

Just a quick note: for the first time since creating this blog, I have enabled moderation on "comments".

My sincere apology to regulars ie, the "back porch".

This will only be temporary until the lying spammer decides to take his act somewhere else. Dissent is fine! Abuse is not! And stupid abuse is unforgivable!

Ed Encho said...

To be real honest with you I had never really even heard of Mr. Shermer until he appeared in some faux debate on the Thom Hartmann Show a few months ago and my first impression was that he was a real horse's ass.

Probably just another government operative, the air is so thick with mockingbirds now that you can't tell which is which anymore.

If I were a betting man I would be willing to lay odds that Shermer is on the propaganda payroll and singling out Alex Jones whose over the top bombast makes him easy to paint up as the fake devil is a smear job to discredit the entire movement.

I don't know what to make of Jones to be honest with you, some of the stuff seems to be pretty dead on but there are a lot of areas that strangely receive little or no mention.

The oil aspects of the whole geopolitical matrix for example.

Anyway Len, keep up the good work and don't let the Megaphoners give you too much crap.

If you need help policing them let me know, I am not in your league when it comes to research but I can rant and bring down the rhetoric Arc Light with the best of em.

EE

Len Hart said...

Thanks, Ed. I really hate having to moderate these comments. But the offending shill repeated himself ad nauseam with comments not merely untrue but insulting, irrelevant, and abusive.

And, you can count on me to keep up the fight and same goes to you. It's been a pleasure reading you here and on OpED. Thanks for your support, as well.

Ed Encho said...

They are a bunch of slimy little pricks aren't they? They remind me of the abuse that I got over at Daily Kos.

But the good thing is that if you are now deemed a worthy target of such abuse then you are now being seen as a threat to them.

Just keep it up man, your stuff is great.

EE

Allen Branson said...

It's amazing how quickly writing common sense about 9/11 will bring out the nut jobs like b.j. edwards. Of course he, like all of the other detractors from truth, wouldn't dare debate the subject point by point. Instead, they throw a little mud under the guise of an assumed name then run and hide.

Of course, for those who have their eyes open, the fact that the b.j. edwards of the world appear when you talk sense about 9/11 like sharks around blood should raise some eyebrows over those open eyes. He and others like him are deathly afraid of the truth and will attack it viciously before it ever gets the chance to flower.

Anne said...

Michael Shermer is a pseudoskeptic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoskepticism

Take a look at this reply to Shermer's uncritical defense of the official story of 9/11:
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/sciam_reply.htm

Hear the Shermer vs. Fetzer debate about 9/11:
Part 1
http://twilightpines.com/media/Shermer_Fetzer_Rd_1_09_11_07.mp3

Part 2
http://twilightpines.com/media/Shermer_Fetzer_Rd_2_09_11_07.mp3

More information on pseudo-skeptics, their rhetorical ploys and agenda:

http://www.suppressedscience.net/skepticism.html
http://www.tricksterbook.com/ArticlesOnline/CSICOPoverview.htm
http://www.fiu.edu/~mizrachs/truzzi.html
http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/New/Anomali/perspective.html
http://www.discord.org/~lippard/stupid-skeptic-tricks.txt
http://www.happierabroad.com/Debunking_Skeptical_Arguments.htm
http://paginas.terra.com.br/educacao/criticandokardec/criticizingskepticism.htm
http://www.canlyme.com/quackwatch.html
http://humanticsfoundation.com/quackwatchwatch.htm

Pseudoskeptics aren't real skeptics and truth seekers, but disvelievers of any unorthodox or unofficial theory. At the same time, they're are uncritical believers and defenders of official theories. They use the label "skeptic" to fool the public. It's a propaganda and rethorical ploy.

Len Hart said...

Allen Branson said...

It's amazing how quickly writing common sense about 9/11 will bring out the nut jobs like b.j. edwards.

It never fails. And it will only get worse until this nation decides to actually educate its people. I've also noticed that the vehemence of those folk increases proportionally with their ignorance, inversely with real knowledge. Logic is beyond them and even empirical evidence, things seen and felt, are scorned if it should mean revising a prejudice. God help us!

Anne said...

Michael Shermer is a pseudoskeptic:

I am not in the least bit skeptical of what you say about Shermer. I haven't even BEGUN to take him apart yet. I have written a new article, but even so, I am overwhelmed by the amount of sheer bullshit!

So much bullshit! So little time to refute it all!

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

The government can't keep a secret on anything, fellas. I mean, seriously, as vile as Bush and Cheney truly ARE, to even contemplate something like this, you folks need some help.

Len Hart said...

It boils down to this:

1) Bush obstructed justice in cover it up. That's a felony!

2) There is NOT a shred of hard or admissible evidence in support of the official conspiracy theory --bogus, bullshit easily disproven in the public record. The BBC interview alleged hijackers AFTER 911 for cryin' out loud!!!!

3) The official theory, moreover, DOES NOT explain in any way what was observed to have happened that day.

Those who assert must prove! Bush asserted! He proved absolutely nothing!

Why is this still debated? Why wasn't it investigated? Why are the American people so fuckin' stupid?

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

So, the United States government flew the planes into those buildings? Hmm. Maybe it was U.F.O.s. Did you ever think about that? Maybe it was that second guy behind the grassy knoll. Seriously, bro, even Dennis Kucinich doesn't buy into this 9/11 conspiracy stuff. Bottom line, you sound rather silly.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

Oh, and, please, whatever you do, don't compare yourself to Copernicus, O.K.? DON'T COMPARE YOURSELF TO COPERNICUS!!

Len Hart said...

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

So, the United States government flew the planes into those buildings? Hmm. Maybe it was U.F.O.s. Did you ever think about that? Maybe it was that second guy behind the grassy knoll. Seriously, bro, even Dennis Kucinich doesn't buy into this 9/11 conspiracy stuff. Bottom line, you sound rather silly.

I think YOU sound silly and gullible. Sounds like you've swallowed every fairy tale the government has ever come up with. Your position is: if the government says it, it must be true. Anyone who disagrees with the government is wrong and, therefore, "silly". No one should fairly investigate anything done by government because government is always right and never lies.

You apparantly claim to have subscribed to a skeptical position but, in fact, you have accepted nonsense upon no evidence whatsoever! That is NOT skepticism; it is stupidity! Your position is that of defending the government position and you can't even do that. YOu have failed to cite a shred of admissible evidence in support of the official fairy tale. In fairness, you cannot do so, because there is none! There is not a shred of evidence in support of Bush's numerous statements about 911, many of which are contradictory.

My position is that there should have been an investigation. Apparently, you are content NOT to investigate crimes. If that is your position --'fess up!

The co-chairs of the 911 commission are now among the commission's biggest critics. Are you telling me that every word of the 911 commission is gospel? If so, make your case!

The dictum is: THOSE WHO ASSERT MUST PROVE! So --state whatever it is you think Bush's theory is and back it up.

Your remarks, moreover, fail to address a single issue raised in my remarks. Therefore, you lose.

Secondly, I didn't posit a theory. Yet --you ascribe one to me! That is dishonestd! Why did you do that?

Here's your assignment: look up the definition of the word "refute". Until you learn the meaning of that word, you cannot hope to refute anyone posting here.

Finally, no one here is comparing themselves to Copernicus or anyone else. Your remark about Copernicus is just stupid. As were your irrelevant remarks about UFOs.

Giordan said...

Shermer pulls the same stunts regarding the Holohoax. Fortunately, Lyle Burkhead has subjected Shermer's misleading and disingenuous arguments to sustained examination:

http://www.geniebusters.org/915/04g_jumping.html

Ken said...

well you make some good points, but I think you err in trying to shoehorn this whole 9/11 deal in to the classic Republican/Democrat dichotomy.


Too many people are still distracted by party politics in this country.




The fact is that the neocon phenomena is active in both parties. The primary culprit in this is Israel which funds and controls both parties through AIPAC. I think you have to understand that before you can understand politics in America.




Ken

www.LaserGuidedLoogie.com

Len Hart said...

Ken said...

well you make some good points, but I think you err in trying to shoehorn this whole 9/11 deal in to the classic Republican/Democrat dichotomy.

My position is that there should have been an investigation. Let a REAL investigation track down what OJ would have called the "real killers". I will abide with that and I don't care what kind of 'label' they present to the world --GOP, Demo, whig, Paulian, or Scientologist. I don't care. I want to see the GUILTY folk executed for their capital crimes.

Len Hart said...

Blogger Giordan said...

Shermer pulls the same stunts regarding the Holohoax.

If --as you state --the "holocaust" is really just a "Holohoax", then why did the authors of YOUR own link, state unambiguously the following:

In fact, as he knows perfectly well, no one denies the Holocaust as a general phenomenon. Of course the Nazis rounded up Jews and sent them to concentration camps, where many of them died.

Moreover, your use of the term "holohoax" is fallacious --a crass propaganda technigue. Secondly, I smell a strawman fallacy hanging over your presentation of this issue, specifically, the feeling that you have tried to drag this blog into the middle of a fight gone horribly, but, predictably wrong. Bluntly, who the hell EVER said that the Holocaust was anything OTHER THAN "...a general phenomenon."?

I might add: Justice Robert Jackson won his case against several high level Nazis. Among the thousands of pages of documentary evidence (have you read them?) was a memo from Hermann Goring himself ordering a "Final Solution" of the Jewish Question. In the meantime, go read the surviving minutes of the meeting at Wannsee and dare to use the term "Holohoax" on this forum.

Next time, do your homework!

Anonymous said...

Ignore Michael Shermer, he has his head up his arse. He seems to know as much about 9/11 as he does the holocaust. He has been dissected and debunked many times when it comes to the holocaust. This man is a fraud.

Len Hart said...

Anonymous said...

He (Shermer) has been dissected and debunked many times when it comes to the holocaust. This man is a fraud.

He's a naive, gullible skeptic who could not have made my debate team.

newscalculus said...

newscalculus said

Len:

We need to tie in the financial meltdown, already under way, and the falling greenback, with the 9/11 fraud story and determine if there is any correlation. Remember the longevity of Greenspan and the 1999-02 recession enabled the lowering of interest rates (thus the expansion of capital and credit). Also gov't regulation for all practical purposes became non-existent. I'm investigating this at this point. Would appreciate any collaboration, as it doesnt seem coincidental.

Len Hart said...

newscalculus said...

We need to tie in the financial meltdown, already under way, and the falling greenback, with the 9/11 fraud story and determine

The most obvious connectin is the millions (if not billions) made short-selling airline stocks on 911. I defy anyone to come up with an 'innocent' explanation. There is none. The recipients of those profits had guilty foreknowledge of 911. The name 'Buzz' Krongard comes up. Here's the LINK to Ruppert's story about it.

Now --a planned financial meltdown might have presented the same opportunities. Historically, 'elites' have always emerged richer, stronger from recessions. That's no conspiracy theory --it's a principle that was articulated by the conservative economist Joseph Schumpeter who compared recessions to a 'douche' that swept away certain elements of an economy. On the other side of Ronald Reagan's recession of some two years, the rich had gotten richer while the middle class was in danger of being wiped out completely.

The GOP will blame the victims. Now --there are FEMA camps open and ready for those who fall through the gaping cracks. A perpetually depressed economy is a good source of slave labor.

Len Hart said...

Re: newscalculus

Here's more related material from Carolyn Baker, Ph.D:

"During the late-nineteenth and early twentieth centuries in America, as labor unions organized and gathered power, as socialism grew in popularity among working and other oppressed peoples, industries owned by Rockefeller, Morgan, Harriman, Carnegie, and others, began hiring their own police forces and goon squads to infiltrate labor unions and spy on the political and personal activities of union organizers for the purpose of bringing arrests and convictions and eliminating all socialist activity in the nation. The most notorious example was the Homestead Strike of 1892, when Pinkerton agents killed several people while enforcing the strikebreaking measures of Henry Clay Frick, acting on behalf of Andrew Carnegie."

stuarthwyman said...

I will link you to my next post...

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